Colour Picker and Working Colour Space

[Marpel]

I recently picked up a new camera and along with a forced change in my raw converter (D810 is not supported by Capture NX-2), I decided to give the ProPhoto working colour space a try. I now process a raw image and render it to a 16bit ProPhoto Tiff. Although I have only had experience with this new system/process /colour space for a few days, everything seems to be working out OK.

However, I have noticed that when I have one of the newer TIFF images open and I want to generate a new image, with a single colour background, the Colour Picker now seems to exhibit a noticeable rather abrupt edge about halfway out from the centre (unsaturated) point, especially in the blue/red/orange hues, and not the gradual gradation I recall when using the old (Adobe 1998) space.

Am I just seeing things or is this related in any way to the change to ProPhoto?

Marv

[Marpel]

Should have mentioned in my first post, that I changed the working colour space in PWP, in case my explanation wasn't clear.

Marv

[Marpel]

And further......

I just tried to, again, generate a new image with a solid hue (it's called marsala but don't know the associated numbers) by clicking a sample of a Pantone colour square. Coincidently, that particular hue falls pretty well exactly on the abrupt line on the colour picker that I mentioned in my initial post. The resultant image was markedly different than the Pantone square (way too pinkish). I reverted back to Adobe RGB 1998 and the abrupt edge has disappeared in the picker and the newly generated image is pretty well a match to the Pantone sample.

Now I'm really confused. I was aware that ProPhoto has some issues in its use, however, I thought they were all related to that area of colour that is outside Adobe but still inside ProPhoto, which does not seem to be the case here. Can someone explain what is going on and how to correctly use ProPhoto in PWP.

Thanks,

Marv

[Dieter Mayr]

Marv,

Where did you get the Marsala - colorsample from, what colour space was it in, how did you convert it ?
I suppose you were in 16 Bit colour, it does not make any sense to use ProPhoto in 8 bit, because it is too big and will produce colour steps in 8 Bit.
I have downloaded the ASE file for Marsala from the Pantone website, created a 16 Bit TIFF in ProPhoto in Photoshop, gives the same colour when I open it in PWP, with ProPhoto as Workspace.

What do you mean with the abrupt edge in the Colour Picker ? I do not see any difference when using ProPhoto or Chrome2000 or AdobeRGB.

How did you calibrate your monitor? Can be it's a issue with your monitor profile.

ProPhoto is huge, and delicate to handle, doesn't allow for many mistakes.

[Marpel]

Dieter,

Thanks for your reply.
I obtained the colour sample from a rep at a publisher. I don'y know what colour space it was in, it was a jpeg so I expect it was sRGB or whatever jpegs commonly are.
I did not convert the sample. All I did was generate a new 16bit ProPhoto image (so I'd have a 16bit ProPhoto image open and click "File>New Image ") and clicked the white box to get the Colour Picker, then used the eye dropper on the sample to get the colour. The thing about that method is I do exactly the same thing to generate a new 16bit Adobe RGB 1998 image and the colour is always accurate. In fact, out of curiosity, I generated a 16bit Adobe image of solid hue (accurate colour rendition) and, using a mask, blended that image into a 16bit ProPhoto image (received the different profile warning) and the Marsala colour changed to the pinkish colour I mentioned before, when the new ProPhoto image was generated.
The abrupt edge - when I changed PWP to ProPhoto space, then open the colour picker, about halfway out from the centre the picker looks as it always did with a gradual unsaturated to saturated, but then the colours suddenly saturate markedly (you can easily see the change). If I revert PWP to Adobe RGB 1998 and, again open the picker, that demarcation is gone.
My monitor is an NEC and is calibrated with a puck every month or so. I do images for a publisher so require accurate colour renditions. I'm sure it is not the monitor, however if it happens to me but not in your environment, it must be something I am doing or not doing when changing colour spaces. Don't know what that could be though.
I am aware of the sensitivity of using PRoPhoto, but have read/heard a lot about the benefits so thought I would give it a try.

Any other thoughts would be appreciated,
Marv

[Dieter Mayr]

Marv,

I have saved a jpeg of a Marsala patch fom pantones site, opened in in PWP with Prophoto working space, and it does not look pinkish.
I have tried to open it in both sRGB and ProPhoto, its a slight difference, nothing very noticable.
Did not check if Marsala is inside or outside of sRGB.
I have my ProPhoto profile from here:
https://sites.google.com/site/chromasoft/icmprofiles
Maybe you want to try with this proflie.

Anouther thought, do you have accidentially Softproofing switched to on ?

[Dieter Mayr]

Marsala is inside sRGB, but due to the mechanics of "Maintain full Gamut" rendering intent occurs that small diffrence.

[Marpel]

Dieter,

Thanks for your continued input. Not sure exactly about your second to last message about opening the Pantone Marsala jpeg and whether you mean just opening the file and no pinkish hue is observed however, I too do not see any change in the colour when simply opening the sample file. I do see it though when generating a new ProPhoto document (and when the PWP working space is also ProPhoto) of a solid hue, by using the colour picker and clicking on the sample from Pantone (I took another look at the sample and discovered it is a TIFF and not a jpeg). Again, when doing the exact same thing when using the Adobe space and generating an Adobe document, no colour variation is observed. This makes me suspect that the issue is not with the source sample document but with my setup of ProPhoto, either in the working space or the ProPhoto document. As I indicated before, it's probably something to do with a setting I have/have not activated, a button I pushed, a lever I have thrown.....
And I also checked and the soft proofing is not activated.
And again, the difference in the two document colours is very noticeable (not just a slight difference) and the abrupt edge in the colour picker is also immediately noticeable.

Marv

[Marpel]

A couple other things....
In ProPhoto space, generated new ProPhoto Image (use noted sample as reference). New image is markedly different from sample (way pink). Readout Tool gives 39835 20560 20560. Save and close image. Change Working Space to Adobe RGB 1998. Open the just generated ProPhoto image and convert to Adobe working space when asked. Image looks exactly as it did when ProPhoto but Readout numbers are now 486 18060 24879. Generate a new Adobe image using sample again as reference. Image matches sample exactly. However, Readout Tool is 39835 20560 20560, same as the numbers from the pink looking ProPhoto image. And, when ProPhoto image thumbnail is viewed in the Browser it visually matches the sample colour and does not look pink.

I've apparently done/or not done something that causes the ProPhoto image to look different in the window (but not in the Browser) even when the Readout numbers are the same between the two differently generated images???????

Think I'll just go back to Adobe.

Marv

[Dieter Mayr]

Marv,

Sorry, i have missread or missunderstood.
I can reproduce that pinkish colour when using the eydropper, regardless if the picture of the sample is in 24 or 48 bit.
In both AdobeRGB and Chrome2000 D65 (my preferred workspace) it works fine.
Maybe Kiril or Jonathan can have a look at it from an inside view ?